Join us, Tammy and Joel, as we peel back the curtain on family life, sharing the humor and hurdles of our daily dance with life, love, and arguments.
Come with us through the maze of managing conflicts in relationships, drawing on our missteps and milestones.
You'll hear how we're learning to swap the blame game for a mirror, looking inward to cultivate self-awareness and accountability. It's a raw and honest look at the tug-of-war between old habits and new resolutions, as we aspire to turn every "I'm sorry" into a stepping stone toward better communication.
This episode is not just about recounting our squabbles but about uncovering the lessons within them. From navigating the rocky shores of defensiveness to the art of a well-timed timeout, we're here to share that even in the thick of it, laughter, love, and understanding can prevail.
Tune in and let's navigate these waters together.
Grab your FREE DOWNLOAD of the 10 Questions That Can Make You Fall In Love Again by clicking HERE
The Ultimate Marriage Journal
https://marriedandnakedshop.com/products/marriage-appreciation-journal
Date Night Questions Bundle
hhttps://marriedandnakedshop.com/products/fun-date-night-questions-bundle
Find us on social:
Instagram @marriednnaked
Facebook @MarriedAndNaked
Pinterest @marriednnaked
TikTok @marriedandnaked
Email marriednnaked@gmail.com
Join us, Tammy and Joel, as we peel back the curtain on family life, sharing the humor and hurdles of our daily dance with life, love, and arguments.
Come with us through the maze of managing conflicts in relationships, drawing on our missteps and milestones.
You'll hear how we're learning to swap the blame game for a mirror, looking inward to cultivate self-awareness and accountability. It's a raw and honest look at the tug-of-war between old habits and new resolutions, as we aspire to turn every "I'm sorry" into a stepping stone toward better communication.
This episode is not just about recounting our squabbles but about uncovering the lessons within them. From navigating the rocky shores of defensiveness to the art of a well-timed timeout, we're here to share that even in the thick of it, laughter, love, and understanding can prevail.
Tune in and let's navigate these waters together.
Grab your FREE DOWNLOAD of the 10 Questions That Can Make You Fall In Love Again by clicking HERE
The Ultimate Marriage Journal
https://marriedandnakedshop.com/products/marriage-appreciation-journal
Date Night Questions Bundle
hhttps://marriedandnakedshop.com/products/fun-date-night-questions-bundle
Find us on social:
Instagram @marriednnaked
Facebook @MarriedAndNaked
Pinterest @marriednnaked
TikTok @marriedandnaked
Email marriednnaked@gmail.com
Welcome to the Married to Naked podcast. I'm Tammy, founder of the blog Married to Naked, certified sexuality coach and speaker.
Speaker 2:And I'm Joel, tv host, motivational speaker and the guinea pig to the lessons you're about to learn.
Speaker 1:We're high school sweethearts, married over two decades, and we're on a mission to help you create the marriage you desire and deserve. Let's get naked. Welcome to the Married to Naked podcast. Hi, everybody, happy to be here today. How's it going?
Speaker 2:Hey baby, I jumped too soon. Hi Tammy, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:love you sound like you've had like three monsters.
Speaker 2:I have not. I've had one, and that is it. That's why it was like six or four hours ago, wow.
Speaker 1:Four hours ago.
Speaker 2:No caffeine in my coffee this morning. Caffeine free coffee, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's the afterburn of that monster. You got a bit too much energy for me today.
Speaker 2:Look, can I just say this guys, I need your help here. I walked in the room. My son got picked up from school. I did not know he was here. I was up on a phone call, came downstairs, walked in the room and I said who's sitting there on the couch? I didn't see who it was. And then my son said, hey, it's me. And I'm like hey, what's going on? How are you doing, how was your day? And my son says hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Dad, Can you take it down a notch? My 16 year old son is asking me to take it down a notch and now you're looking at me with the same look that he had wanted me to take it down a notch.
Speaker 1:Yes, I do want you to take it down a notch.
Speaker 2:So, as I started this, I just need your guys' help. I am trapped in a family where, some reason, I am the outlier.
Speaker 1:You have way too much energy for all of us.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know that that's true. It's 100% true, I don't know if too much is the right. I have the right, the appropriate amount of energy For me. You guys just don't have enough for me. Okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Fair enough.
Speaker 2:Okay, I just wanted to get that out there publicly and I feel better now.
Speaker 1:Let's off my chest.
Speaker 2:What are we gonna talk about today?
Speaker 1:by the way, oh my gosh, you did us so much.
Speaker 2:I seriously don't have.
Speaker 1:Why don't I let you go ahead, Cause you seem to have all the energy. Go for it. What are we gonna talk about today? I?
Speaker 2:honestly, are you serious? Cause I have no clue. Well, let's just talk about how hard you've been working lately. I just wanna let everybody and kind of love behind the scenes BTS of what's been happening In the last two weeks. You've done two talks. You've posted I don't even know how many different posts out there on social media your page, our page, my page. You've done so many of those. Your website crashed but been very busy in the last couple of weeks I am very busy.
Speaker 1:What people may not know is that not only do I run my social media page, I also run your social media page and started that about six months ago or so, which, if you wanna know it's a little shameless plug it's IE Explorer. Now you have. That's Joel's page on Instagram.
Speaker 2:Now you have people that are listening.
Speaker 1:We know that there's people listening in Europe and have no idea, of course, but they could still check you out and see what you're up to. What do you do?
Speaker 2:I mean, okay, I go out to local. First of all, ie, or Inland Empire, is a part of Southern California. It's like two giant counties in Southern California. It's where we live.
Speaker 2:It's where we live and for years I've gone around and I go and try where to go, what to do and what to see, what to eat in our local area. Oftentimes I'm usually eating. So if you watch me on social media, I am trying or eating something and I'm either making you jealous because you want it, I'm making you hungry or just grossing you out because I eat so much food. That's one of the three things that I'm gonna end up doing if you watch it.
Speaker 1:It's a tough gig.
Speaker 2:It's a oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:It is. It's a tough gig. You're so spoiled.
Speaker 2:It's so much fun. It is so much fun, like if I could have picked the dream job and I was a little little kid. You're like okay, joel, one day you're gonna travel to all these places, you're gonna be able to try all this food, any food you want, everywhere you go. Would you do it? Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty cool. So I took over your page, so I'm running both of our social media pages, and so that has been a huge shift for me and my capacity to do anything else. It's taken over my life and, yes, my website has crashed. We currently have somebody working on it, but if you were to go there right now, by the time this comes out, it probably is not going to be up and running just yet, but it's gonna be better than ever, so I'm super excited about it. It was a long time coming, so I'm excited about the change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is so cool. So your website, which is your blog, I mean basically everything all in one your store.
Speaker 1:It's gonna be a great site now for our podcast, which is what I've been wanting for a long time.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So we're saying, by the time this is out, it'll be up. Is that what we're saying?
Speaker 1:No, I'm saying it won't be up. It might not be up, it's gonna take a little while.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, all that to say. You've been really busy and really focused and it just seems like you need a little vacation. You need some time off and time away.
Speaker 1:Why do I feel like this has some kind of ulterior motive? It seems like something's gonna benefit you.
Speaker 2:I mean no, what I'm trying to say is you should go away with your sister and your girlfriend. Just go away, just a few of you guys. Just go away, have a girls weekend. Okay, sounds, good Sounds good done, next weekend done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we actually do have a girls weekend plan. You know that? Yep, we're gonna go rent a place. We're gonna go play pickleball to our hearts content, because it has its own pickleball court.
Speaker 2:Oh serious, oh my God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're renting like a house, five of us splitting it, but it's got its own private pickleball court. Wow, how cool is that. That's pretty cool. We didn't have the best time.
Speaker 2:Well, there's five of you, which means you probably need a six.
Speaker 1:So what we're Definitely no. No boys allowed.
Speaker 2:Oh, fine, fine.
Speaker 1:Why don't we take all of your energy and let's direct it into the area that I wanna talk about Today? What I thought we would talk about is some of the mistakes that we've made in arguments and really how we navigated those mistakes to kind of come out on the other side and be able to use those lessons to our advantage to better resolve conflict.
Speaker 2:This sounds like an important topic. I make mistakes, you make mistakes, and sometimes one of us makes more mistakes than the others, so I think that might have been you.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 2:I mean you're controlling the edit button on this, so I need to listen to the final cut.
Speaker 1:So I thought we'd share four different mistakes that and, trust me, we've made endless mistakes. But if we really analyze our arguments and kind of where they were at back in the days where we were really struggling, where we were in this cycle of conflict that we couldn't find our way out of, when I look back at those times, I can see some really clear things that were hanging us up. We've made so many improvements on being able to resolve conflict in a healthy way. I mean, when was the last time that we had an argument and really how long did it last? I think it's a question, because back in the day when we would have arguments let's just go back a little bit Many years ago we were in this cycle of conflict and what that looked like as far as my memory is concerned is we were just bickering all the time and we would literally just bicker about everything.
Speaker 1:That would turn into really big arguments. The arguments sometimes went over days and usually they were not resolved arguments. So we kind of carried this cycle of conflict around all the time and I just remember feeling so tired and frustrated and kind of hopeless that we were never gonna be able to find our way out of it.
Speaker 2:I remember you saying all the time there hasn't been a day that's gone by where we haven't bickered, as you say all the time, like you've got rosy-colored glasses and I would say to you well, no, no, we're not bickering. We didn't bicker about that, we just disagreed about that. I would like try to cover up the truth. I was trying to say more like distinguish between what bickering and what I just didn't. We didn't agree. See eye to eye.
Speaker 1:You're still trying.
Speaker 2:I guess I am. But, truth be told, I remember you saying it a lot, like I don't even know. It could be a week that I gone by, or even three weeks that I gone by, and you would say to me, although there's not a day that goes by without we don't argue or disagree with each other, and I always used to think, well, yeah, that's a relationship Like that's what people do in relationships.
Speaker 2:And here we are years later, in lots of hard work, focused, dedicated hard work, on improving our relationship later and I think back and like, okay, well, that may be what a relationship's about. But now I see how, with again a lot of effort in a dedicated partner and the ability, speaking for myself, my ability to realize that, boy, it was I making some clear mistakes and I should have been doing things better, that things could be so much better.
Speaker 1:You just said that a relationship is about arguing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I guess what I'm trying to say is everybody disagrees and argues in a relationship. If I look at my model my mom and dad they argued all the time and they loved each other more fierce than anyone I'd ever been around. But they argue to this day. Argue all the time, bicker all the time, but they love each other, right? Am I wrong about?
Speaker 1:that. No, it's 100% true. It is remarkable that they are still like a happily married couple, because I could not, and that's where we, I think, come into. I think it's interesting that you said well, that's just how a relationship is, because that was your model and the arguing was my model too, but my model was more quiet arguing there was. When there was arguing, it was yelling and loud, but it was more about shoving things under the rug. So you and I are coming and I don't really think about this much when we are talking about arguments or a conflict resolution and I should, because you are what you've seen Like that was our only models.
Speaker 1:That's how we learned how to resolve conflict. We either run away from it or we go at it head on, or we go out at loud or we shrink away, or. I think it's just really interesting to think about. That's how we came into our relationship. So everybody comes in with their own blueprint of what conflict resolution should look like and most often I imagine, just like with us, it's going to clash heavily yeah, heavily, because you tend to come out arguments in a much more, in a bigger way, like you get loud, you kind of get bigger, like you'll stand up, you know, or pace around. I tend to come at them and I'm not saying I don't yell or I do certainly.
Speaker 2:You definitely have your moments. Of course I do, which I'm complimenting you on that. I mean you definitely have. You're complimenting me. I'm complimenting, I mean you're talking about me being bigger. I'm like dang man. I've witnessed Tammy.
Speaker 1:I've lost my crap.
Speaker 2:Godzilla Tammy, which is I mean, it's a compliment, I say that.
Speaker 1:Wow, you just threw me in.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I elevated you is what I did.
Speaker 1:Yes, I do get big and loud, but what usually happens is that has an expiration and it tends to be fairly quick, and I will, instead of continuing on with that whereas you can go on with that for a really long time I will just shut down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, true, and get quiet.
Speaker 1:But anyway, it's interesting to think about yourselves as a couple and how you both approach conflict and how those have been guided by the people in your life, and what adjustments do you need to make so that it works good for your current relationship. Then you and I have done that. We've obviously learned very much through the hard way, through this cycle of conflict that we were in. So let's talk about some of these mistakes we made. The first one I wanna talk about is one of the biggest mistakes that we've made in arguments and, of course, all of these we still do sometimes, but we are way better at this. The first one is using blame.
Speaker 1:Blame can be incredibly damaging to relationship and what you and I have learned is that it really doesn't have a place in an argument and it doesn't have a place in our marriage. It can be very toxic. It's not a path to resolving an argument. We've certainly learned that All it tends to do is perpetuate it. Blame can make a partner feel small, unloved, unheard and attacked, which can affect a sense of trust in the relationship. It can be abusive if constantly used without checking. I think one of the reasons why our arguing just kept going and going and going is because we were not just in a circle of conflict, we were in a circle of blame. Every argument we had, I feel, was trying to point fingers at the other person about how they did it wrong. I was trying to constantly show you how you were doing something wrong and it was your fault and I felt a hundred percent justified in doing that.
Speaker 2:Totally agree with you. I mean I'm I mean it was your fault. Every time it absolutely. You know we're being real here. I mean I think about this all the time, about how did we become so wise as time's gone on? I'm like I I can't argue with you and I literally think this is all your fault. I Physically can't do that anymore and I know at one point I did like how dare you question me? It's not even the way I think anymore and I hope I don't do that anymore.
Speaker 1:No, I think that the reason we are where we are is because, along the way, we both decided that we each had work to do and we were willing to Figure out that work and do the work. We were willing to take really hard looks at ourselves, and that's where the wisdom began to start. We saw that we are making our own mistakes, we are contributing to where this relationship is at and it's not in a good place, and that's what started it all. And now, because we've been doing that for so many years, being able to step back and look at ourselves feels like second nature. It's not easy, but it's something we always do.
Speaker 1:Always we can get in an argument, step out or I step out, or whatever happens, and then 10, 15 minutes or whatever we're like, dang it. What did I do to contribute to that? This is where the accountability piece comes in, and if you are in a cycle of of conflict and if you are an encycl of blame, the best place to start is to work on being accountable. I'll always promote working on yourself first and foremost, and the reason that is is because, if you point your, when you pointed the finger at me, the first thing I wanted to do Was fight my side.
Speaker 1:Yeah if I point the finger at you, you're gonna want to fight your side, you're gonna want to prove me wrong, and Somewhere along the way I realized that's not working. That's not working. So instead of pointing it at you, I'm. My job needs to become pointing it at myself and Beginning to analyze what am I doing, because I can't control you. I can control myself, and I need to start working on having better tools to navigate these arguments. I need to start doing a better job and I feel like and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that Transitions started with me.
Speaker 1:We talk about it all the time how I kind of had this epiphany about account accountability after talking with a friend of mine and I decided I wanted to work on accountability because we were just so stuck in this ugliness and when I started doing the, that work within our arguments, you, we both started seeing improvement and Then, through that, you were like, okay, I need to start doing this too. She's working hard at it, I can see it's helping. I need to do the same thing. And Then together we were working on it and we were improving, and that's what sets us apart, I think, from a lot of other couples who I hear from is that you have to both be willing to do the work. You have to both be willing to see that you yourself have a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1:Quit looking at what your partner has to do and I'm not saying I'm not saying to let them just get away with all their negative behaviors. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is the first place to look is that yourself.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely right. That is exactly where it started. Think about this. We would add the argument, and our typical is you said this and then your response wasn't what it typically was, which is and you're this and you're that it was. Yeah, I see how my actions could have contributed to that problem. Can you imagine if your spouse were to do that in an argument? Talk about disarming and Completely having you reevaluate what you're about to because you're ready to go on the defense, but when you stop that and when you turn around and take it and I'm not saying to, I'm not saying to take the argument, but when you become accountable, for your own part and for your own mistakes, because in every argument, every argument, I have at least a small role in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. When you, when you do that, it becomes a very, very different discussion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what happened? Is you naturally started to do the same thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it totally Shifts the environment to where now?
Speaker 1:without, without me even saying hey, you need to be accountable to all, I'm being accountable, you need to be too. I never said that exactly was just a natural Response from me, kind of leading by example as I was learning myself. It was just kind of your natural Response to that example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I again, I don't want people to think that we don't argue. You said in the very beginning we do have disagreements, we don't argue, but nothing like before. And and I think this I don't know what the other three things are you're about to say, but this is definitely the biggest one for me.
Speaker 1:Well, you were talking about the next thing, and the next thing is what leads directly from blame, and you've already used the word, which is defensive defensive, yes, defensive defensiveness.
Speaker 1:Yes, being defensive, defensive was a huge mistake in our marriage. Dr John Gottman, who's a marriage researcher and can predict the probability of divorce and newlyweds within just a few minutes of seeing them interact with each other, calls defensiveness one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse of marriage. When we feel accused, we feel the need to defend and fight back. You point the finger, I'm gonna fight my side. The thing is Defensive defensiveness. That tactic is rarely effective. Shocker, although it's really normal to feel defensive. When you're attacked, of course you're gonna feel defensive.
Speaker 1:It needs to be understood that it's not an effective way to resolve an argument. Defensiveness perpetuates it. And I feel like I have learned this so deeply in my core because I remember all those years ago I was in a time when we fought Damn, you're so defensive. Why are you so defensive? I can't even talk to you. You're so defensive and I would be like I'm not being defensive. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not being defensive, I'm just trying to show that my side of it, you know, and I I don't know where along the way, but I remember I just started thinking Okay, he's telling me I'm being defensive, there's got to be something here.
Speaker 1:So I really started paying attention To how I would start to feel in an argument. I started to look for that defensiveness and I got good at being able to recognize it by doing that. I could then say oh, that's that defensiveness he's talking about. I need to figure out how to shut that defensiveness down, because what you would tell me is I can't even talk to you, you're being so defensive, you're not listening to me, you're being so defensive. And you were 100% right, because all I was doing in my brain was like planning my defense Right. That doesn't make for a very good listener.
Speaker 2:We're both guilty of this. Really, we're both 100% guilty, and I feel like we do a much, much better job with blame.
Speaker 1:I don't feel like it really enters our arguments anymore.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely, I totally agree with you, defensive this. I feel like it's hidden back there and then suddenly one of us says something and it just jumps up and it grabs us, sometimes Because it's a very natural response.
Speaker 1:I think If you're feeling attacked by somebody, you're going to feel defensive and that's 100% OK. It's fine to feel that way. The problem comes when it then affects how you can navigate conflict, and that's what it was doing. It didn't allow me to hear you in any way.
Speaker 2:I feel like for both of us, when we each say to each other you're being defensive, it's an immediately knee jerk react no, we're not. And then, when that's said, I feel like, oh crap, that's a definite sign that I'm being defensive. Do you say that to me and my knee jerk is like no, I'm not. You're like oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I am yeah, and I would caution against using you're being defensive, because that is kind of blame. But I feel like for you and I, because we've done so much work, it is something important for us to say to each other, and when you say it, then I have to then look at myself. I think it. For us it can be utilized as a tool, whereas other people, if you haven't done that work, I would caution against saying you're being defensive, because that is not going to have the response that you want it to have.
Speaker 2:I would never go at you and say, timmy, you're just being defensive. That's just not the way we communicate. I mean, sweetheart, I need you to just hear this, hear it gently that you're being a little defensive and we're not really getting to the core of what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah, so you're right. We don't say to each other as a means, accusation, accusation.
Speaker 1:Right, it's more of an awareness thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Government says the antidote to it defensiveness is accountability, and we've talked about accountability. That means really hearing your partner's concern and owning up to your partner, just as we've talked about before. Even if it's only a small part, the key for me and being able to move through defensiveness and move through blame was being able to look and point out something that I've done to contribute to that argument, even if it was the tiniest little thing, like I spoke in a way I shouldn't have, or I raised my voice or I was defensive. Whatever I can own up to, our willingness to acknowledge that we may actually be at fault or partially at fault is really the way out, and this is what Gottman said and how. He's find remarkable is, when we were going through this, I had no idea who, john Gottman- was.
Speaker 1:I didn't know who all these marriage people were. Somehow this stuff just happened. And then, way after I started my blog and I'd start doing all this research into deep research into these marriage people, and I'd see these things oh my gosh, accountability it's that word. We've been saying that word for so long. That changed our marriage, and this is an example right here. Our willingness to acknowledge that we may actually be at fault or partially at fault is really the way out. It was 100% our way out. 100%. It is still our way out.
Speaker 1:If I can just look at myself instead of pointing it at you, we will eventually find our way out of it. I'm not saying that I'm 100% at fault and I've got to own up to everything and it's all my responsibility. I don't want that to ever be interpreted that way, because sometimes it is. That's not what I mean. But my job in this relationship is to analyze the way I am approaching conversations, the way I'm approaching conflict, my role in this relationship, and am I doing a good job at it. If I'm more focused on you, you're never going to be able to find your way to a middle ground. It's just always going to be a fight. If you could just switch it on. You look within yourself, do your own work and ideally and hopefully that has a ripple effect in your marriage that your spouse will then in turn do the same.
Speaker 2:You need to snip that part out right there, because I'm not kidding. That is beautifully said. You're not talking about changing a person. You're not talking about fixing a person. You're literally talking into, you're pointing the finger right back at you which is the thing you said in the very beginning and you're being accountable for your own actions, your own changes, your own fixes, in order to basically get the life, have the life you truly want and, like you always say, having a partner who's willing to go down that journey with you. Be accountable with you, make these changes with you.
Speaker 1:Internally, the external appears At least it has in our case and many other people that Right and you may not have a partner who is willing to take that journey with you, who's willing to do that in our work. For me, it's knowing that I did literally everything I felt I could do to be the best partner, the best version of myself that I could be, if your partner is not, in turn, doing that. I posted something about this today because the hard facts is, you cannot change your spouse. So many people reach out, are telling me all the things that their spouse is doing and they're incredibly disrespectful, incredibly hurtful, sometimes emotionally abusive or verbally abusive, and they're asking me what do I do? How do I change them? And the truth, the hard truth, is you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to. I can't, I couldn't change you. That was one of the biggest realizations I ever had. I can't change you. You luckily changed you and did. I influenced you by my living, by me trying to work on myself, by me doing that work. I influenced you.
Speaker 1:You have to be willing to make those changes for yourself and many people just they're sitting around waiting for their spouse to change and they're putting up with incredibly disrespectful behaviors. I just want so bad for people to hear that they can't force change. The question is can I change my spouse or how can I change my spouse? The question is, if you don't have a partner who's willing to go on this ride with you and willing to step up and do their work, the question is is that the right person for you? And that's the hard question that I feel like sometimes we tiptoe around, but it's the truth Are they the right person for you? I don't believe that every couple that gets married is meant to be married or the right match for each other. The reason we were able to be where we are is because we were able to take the ride together, because we were each willing to put in the internal work that needs to be done.
Speaker 2:For sure yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the other mistakes we made and I think, one that I feel like we still need to work on in a healthier way rather than in an angry way, is taking a break, is learning how and when to take a break, and understanding that it's inevitable that some arguments are going to get heated ours still do and we may find ourselves boiling and kind of seeing red and able to get a clear thought, but if we find ourselves going in circles or notice that feeling of getting too heated, it's okay to ask for a break. Taking a break from an argument can be a really helpful strategy in conflict management, and I feel like this is something that we're not great at doing, because sometimes our break looks like just walking away. If I walk away which I tend to be the one that does the walking away I wasn't going to point your fingers or make any bling.
Speaker 2:I'm owning that, 100% owning that.
Speaker 1:I tend to be the one that walks away, and when I do that, it freaks you out and what I think is happening and I'm just now kind of processing this is I think that taps into your feelings of fear, of abandonment, because I'm just walking away and you don't know what the heck's going on. So then you get like loud and angry. And then I get angry that you're yelling and you're loud. But if we could handle it in a way where it's like hey, it's getting heated right now I'm seeing red, I'm boiling. Let's just take a 15 minute break. Let's come back in 15 minutes and let's re-approach. That's such a healthier way to do it. Do we take breaks? Yes, do we come back after those breaks? 100%, the break doesn't mean you get to then forget about the argument and ignore it and move on with your life. No, it's agreeing to a time and it's agreeing to come back whenever that's going to be and re-approach the discussion. Sometimes for me that means overnight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it how you've always gone against the grain. You've always scoffed at the phrase of never go to bed angry and you always kind of laugh at it. Anytime it's in a movie, anytime it shows up, you're like yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Well, for some people that works great, but for me it doesn't. Because if we are late into the night having an argument, I get to the point where I cannot think or function and I get so tired and overwhelmed by that fatigue that I can't function enough to find myself to resolve an argument. I do much better when I get sleep. I'll always, always, can come the next morning in a completely different mindset, ready to tackle whatever that is, and we may still go right back into the argument, but I am much more ready to be able to handle that in a healthier manner. So I don't agree that every marriage should have the saying never go to bed angry. Some it works great, for me it doesn't.
Speaker 2:I feel like that whole stepping away is as much as I don't like to do it. I feel like it always serves us well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Always serves us well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the keys in when you are stepping away is to make sure that that time is not utilized to then build your case. It should be really just take a breath, go distract yourself with something else, just breathe and then come back to it with kind of a fresh mindset rather than one that's been ruminating.
Speaker 2:I can't think of a recent time when I mean, how amazing is that. I can't think of Any recent arguments where we've had to. Well, I take it back, we had one, the other night.
Speaker 1:We did have one. There's waiting for you to bring it up. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And that was the first time in a long time like we, yeah. I mean at least months, right Tim. Yeah, I think and in our argument was. I didn't know what the argument was.
Speaker 1:I don't remember what it was about. I remember how it was resolved, but I don't remember what it was about and I remember saying this is stupid, why are we fighting?
Speaker 2:and then what happened? Something happened to where I had to like leave the room.
Speaker 1:So I think you chose to leave the room. You were doing what we do and you walked out that time.
Speaker 2:I just remember walking out, being in my office, and you walking into my office, we embraced right away. I just remember saying I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry that, whatever I can't remember what the topic was you said the same thing and it was done, you know. And if we do.
Speaker 1:That's typically how they're resolved. Now We'll have the argument. Most often, one of us will take a break, usually not in the healthiest way, so something we need to work on, but it usually doesn't take more than 10, 15 minutes or something like that, when either one of us is coming to the other and being accountable, apologizing to saying I love you, you know all that kind of stuff, and we find our way to a quick resolve. And the last mistake that we've made is Bringing up the past, and this is one I don't think we do too much of anymore, but it used to be quite the pattern.
Speaker 1:Bringing up the past during an argument can be a sure way of leading to more arguments. The truth is, we think we can recall the past perfectly, but bringing it up can be riddled with errors and can cause feelings of hurt, attack and frustration. One of my biggest pet peeves is you Bringing up the past into the argument, and one of the reasons it's Really frustrating with for me and you know this obviously is because I have a terrible memory and you have an amazing memory. So you will try to like recount something of a previous argument or previous something and Say I said something or did something and I literally will have zero recollection and it feels like I'm being trapped, you know, like you're trying to trap me into something or catch me into something, and I can't even Defend myself at all because I don't remember. So I think it's. It's never served us well Bringing up the past.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's funny because I remember saying to you a lot we should record our conversation, we should record our argument so that we could document it. We can remember what we're saying letter later. You Hated when I said that and there's a couple times we're actually hit record on that it just makes me angry right now.
Speaker 1:So and can you just imagine Listeners, maybe your partner does this Imagine you in like the in like a heated argument, like you're just yelling at each other and your spouse hits record On the phone or says I'm gonna record this, or goes to pull out their phone, is trying to find them. I mean, talk about taking an argument from like, let's say, 50 to 110. That's the way to do it. It was so Infuriating because that was your way of saying you wanted to catch me doing something that you were trying to prove me wrong at.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, but but not in that sense. It was. I mean, ultimately, yes, that's, that's correct, but it was because of what you just said. Sometimes you always said I'm not gonna, I don't remember this. I mean, then we were like fighting in circles.
Speaker 1:That's what it see Like the army, about my memory it was about that we would go in circles and you would be losing your mind. I would, and I'm like trying to like catch me and being the fault of it, like this is not what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:You brought up something totally different. No, I'm not, and then I would go back to recount what we started. So I'm like let me record this and I mean, that's just like you said. That took it to a whole new level, and so I don't recommend anybody doing that pulling out a recording device and or bringing up the past or bringing up the past.
Speaker 1:Not in an argument.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not the right time to bring it up in a current argument, because then you're just gonna be arguing about what the other Thing was about. You're not focused on what the current argument is. You need to stay as focused as you can, and I know you would tell me all the time that that was something that was hard for me to do, but trying to be present in that particular argument is really important.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying don't ever bring up the past, because yeah there's plenty of things that I'm sure need to be Healed or managed or work through from the past. There's plenty of lessons to be learned from the past. Just don't do it in the heat of the moment. It's not gonna serve you at all. Do it at another time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're right, we do very. We don't do that anymore. I don't see that happening. We know that doesn't? That's like a Quick sand really.
Speaker 1:Exactly the. So those are the four mistakes we made in arguments. We've made many, many more and I'm sure we will make many more in the future. But these are some good things to really kind of hold as tools for you to utilize In your conflict. And if, the more you can practice I'm telling you the first times it'll be terrible and don't try them all at once, you know, say to yourself, okay, I'm gonna work on being, I'm gonna work on not using blame in this argument. Don't try to do them all at once. Take one and really work on it and kind of hone it and get good at it and Then bring in another one. And bring in another one. And the more you can practice, the better and better and better it's gonna be.
Speaker 1:Trust me, when I first started trying to recognize defensiveness, it was so hard for me to see it, so hard. But I just kept trying. I kept listening to you, I kept trying to pay attention to how I felt, paying attention to what I said, and I got better and better at it. And now I see it almost immediately in Myself. I can see it right away. So just keep practicing, keep doing it. You'll get better and better and better. Don't give up. You can do this.
Speaker 1:And If you're really really stuck in just a cycle of argument, cycle of conflict that you cannot find your way out of, no matter what you do, I strongly recommend you finding a therapist, a counselor, that can help the two of you Gain some tools so that you can better navigate these conflicts, because conflicts will take your marriage down. You got to find your way out, so find help If. If you need to, don't hesitate to do that. All right, baby, thanks for going down a memory lane with me. It had some, had some, what do you call them? It had some Potholes, yes, but that's okay. That's okay. We're not perfect.
Speaker 1:No I still have a lot to learn.
Speaker 2:No, you know what I love doing this, though, because it especially a topic like this, because it is, it's not something we yeah, we definitely learned from it, and we've there's few of these that were better at, but there's still things that we I mean it's still great reminder for the next time we do have an argument to remember. Oh yeah, yeah, I gotta stop being a little defensive or recognize or we need a time out.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, like you need to say it out loud like, yeah, we always do better when we take time, but I've never been one to volunteer right, right, yeah, next time it's your turn. I will report back.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening. I hope everybody has a great day and we'll talk to you next time on the married and naked podcast. Bye, everybody.